1.5Gb RAM, how to modify BIOS?

[Eugene Gorbunoff]

As you know, new motherboards allow use 1.5Gb or 2.5 of RAM to OS/2,

Somebody should write why this happens:
* new motherboard should setup itself to work in 64 bit mode
* all devices are initialized, memory is allocated, ... [what happens exactly?]
* OS/2 switches the computer to 32 bit mode
* but the devices, memory can't be re-configured.  [what happens exactly?]

So, my question:
is it possible modify BIOS (disassemble, rewrite, compile again) so it works better for OS/2?

It's enough to modify 2 .. 5 BIOSes every year (for every generation). and support selected models only, not hundreds of motherboards.

[Dave Yeo]

My understanding is that the missing memory is used by PCI space. Video memory in particular can be pretty large on modern systems. I believe that ArcaOS in UEFI mode does some rearranging of memory to claim some but now a days with 64bit OS normal, BIOS and hardware manufacturers don't even consider 32 bit systems.
I guess in theory a BIOS could be rewritten, easier said then done. Things like secure boot to consider too.
Question, is 2.5GB of ,e,ory that bad? 1.5GB is getting tight.

[JTA]

LibreBoot.org?

As I understand it, every manufacturer creates their own BIOS/UEFI for their hardware (from other vendors of older BIOS license schemes or newer UEFI "standards") ... buy a mobo or pc/laptop, you get what they install by default (usually into proprietary ROM or such).

General trend might be that BIOS/hardware combo seems to be fading out, and UEFI/hardware seems to be taking over. All 64-bit, lots of RAM, etc. because that's also the general trajectory of modern 64-bit OS's.

OS/2 folks come along, and install a very old 32-bit OS on top of modern, or more likely, more compatable older hardware models with BIOS. ArcaOS lets them get a bit further with UEFI models. They get whatever memory space comes out of these options, but many constraints remain.

If someone doesn't want to run OS/2 in a VM (providing probably the most memory space possible to OS/2), where virtualization certainly allows bypassing many memory and bitness constraints, then perhaps they might want to pursue:

- picking a more "open" hardware platform
- picking a more "open" BIOS/UEFI
- testing OS/2 on these

Perhaps investigate libreboot.org; these folks have open solutions. Probably others producing more open BIOS's (but tied to older hardware?)

Perhaps then you can continue running OS/2 natively, even though all it's other limitations are still present.

Virtualization seems to solve most every problem OS/2 faces, very easily, and it certainly allows me to also sidestep all the bios/uefi "issues" at present. But, one could pursue these other avenues if still wanting native OS/2 directly on top of hardware, and wanting to tweak the memory space available to it.

[Eugene Gorbunoff]

Virtualization - it quickly kills OS/2. So, it should be prohibited in OS/2 country.

Libreboot - thank you that mentioned it. No, no need to create own BIOS for OS/2 only.
I talk about quick dirty hack of official BIOSes.

For example.. look at LGA1151, there are 30 popular (massive) motherboards. Let's take 5 models of this motherboards. and hack the BIOSes:
drop half of devices to trashcan, shift memory spaces of other PCI devices, and free space for standard system memory.

Do the same for Gen 10 motherboards, then do the same for Gen 12 motherboards.

* Does the memory allocation/initialization is processed by "BIOS program"?

[JTA]

"Virtualization - it quickly kills OS/2. So, it should be prohibited in OS/2 country."

Forgive me for not fully understanding this comment ... what part of virtualization kills OS/2? How would you be using virtualization, such that it kills os/2?

Need more words here ... if you can spare the time. Thanks!

[Eugene Gorbunoff]

=== For simple user, for consumer: ===

For any user the Virtualization (virtual machines)  is very useful tool. it Makes you powerful, flexible, etc.
No need to discuss.

=== For simple Windows user ===

--//---

It helps you migrate from old Windows versions, it allows you to use other OSes, ..

Thanks to Virtual machines Windows is growing, becomes powerful. Windows absorbs other OSes, alternative OSes, it's growing every day thanks to Virtual machines.
 // the same for Linux, for MacOSX giants.
No need to discuss this topic.


=== For OS/2 ===

We have 1000 OS/2 users for example, if 100 of this users start using VM and load OS/2 as a guest then:
* this people stop spending money and time to OS/2, don't buy shareware apps anymore, don't write scripts, etc.
don't fight anymore.
they start to use Windows Host power: Windows apps, tools, ..   They froze OS/2 usage at some level and don't increase the usage.

* => as result, those who stay with OS/2, other 900 users:
** they lost this 100 friends, they lost this 100 customers,
** No economical reason to develop apps for OS/2 anymore because the market is shrinking
** the developers get less bug-reports because this 100 users are spending more time in the host system, are lazy to spend efforts to OS/2.
** a dozen of other negative events happen.


The topic of virtual machines was discussed since ~ 2000, eComStation Kim Cheung, ..  Concord concept (you have main host computer and secondary guest attached as PCI adapter), etc..
* 2005 year - We were working on Serenity Virtual Machine (SVISTA/2), but Bob St.John failed to retain the project and Parallels Studio became standalone and growed up Parallels Virtual Machine, Achim failed to sign the agreement with Parallels too, so started the development of VirtualBox VM.  etc.
* During the development of SVISTA/2 we understood that VM idea kills OS/2, makes more damage than benefits.
* Remember ~ 2006 => 2008  when Apple computers with Intel CPU were released. and cheap Parallels VM was released. They absorbed thousands of OS/2 users very quickly.

[JTA]

This is great historical info, and I wasn't aware of it ... thanks for taking the time to share it!

So, it seems that there are multiple types of computer users, and the subset that brushes up against OS/2 further breaks down to those that stay because they've solved problems, and those that move on because they couldn't solve problems (and many levels in between).

Running OS/2 natively seems like sales effort these days ... buy this computer, and run OS/2 (ArcaOS) on it. Don't look at that browser issue, look over here at all that OS/2 can (still) do ... no, no, don't look over there! But, there's no specialized sales teams any more ...

If virtualization helps solve OS/2 problems, I'm not sure we can arbitrarily fence it out to keep folks away from just bailing on a problem and moving to the dark side. Some of these very intractable problems (browsers, etc.) may be pushing folks away faster than any kind of VM effect.

But, I have been trying to nail down the types of OS/2 users out there, thru various methods of counting. This gives me more insights into the types ...

Thanks again!

[mauro]

my humble opinion is that OS2/ArcaOS (otherwise defined as "those who mantain it") on real hardware is for a niche market, represented by professionals and small enterprises that need some of its specific features.
I am a private-basic user: what element should push me to buy and manage an ArcaOS installation on a pc not even knowing if it will boot then, and being aware that in case of success it misses the connection possibility through a modern and stable browser ?
So I'm killing OS2 for using it on Virtualbox?
I think that the real menace for OS2 is lack of commercial interest (and investments) on final consumer target, despite many devs also populating this forum are putting free but strong efforts to revive its functionality out of commercial scopes

[Doug Clark]

As you know, new motherboards allow use 1.5Gb or 2.5 of RAM to OS/2,

Somebody should write why this happens:

Eugene,

I think this has been discussed in various Warpstock presentations on UEFI in the last few years - which should be available on line.  I can remember seeing presentations about the boot process, why some (or most) of the memory is unavailable to OS/2, what AOS does to try and move stuff in memory durning boot up to make more available to the system, etc.  But I do not know of any written description of the process - other than possibly handouts/screen shots from the presentations.  I agree that would be very nice to have.

I should point out that my fairly new motherboard (MSI PROB550-VC) and Ryzen 5 processor makes 3.567MB out of the installed 16.355 GB available to the system.  And Dave's point about with the speed of m2.ssds and data transfers with virtual memory does it really matter that much?

Mauro's point is true about it being risky to buy a motherboard/processor/laptop not knowing in advance how compatible that is with AOS.  I spent some time researching what was available and compatible with AOS before I purchased.  I used the forums here and the wiki to find out that information.  But it was, and still is, not easy.

My memory of the history of svista and the other early VMs is slightly different.  My memory of the motivation for those early VMs was to make guest operating systems available on an OS/2 host, so the OS/2 host could run applications (specifically windows applications) on those guests.  I never installed svista but I did purchase VirtualPC  v 5.x and was surprised at how well it ran WinNT 4 and Win XP on my system.  More recently I have used vbox 5 on both Intel and AMD based AOS systems to run WinNT4 and WinXP guests and that works pretty well:  starting the vm can be a bit tricky and vbox lacks serial support which virtualPC had, and you have to be careful with virtual memory limit  -  I could not run firefox and vbox at the same time, but other wise it worked pretty well.

We live in interesting times.  You can buy new (as in never used) 9th and 10th generation Intel processors and motherboards from Amazon.  Intel has re-released what is essentially its 10th gen i5 processor.  AMD has announced and is releasing new Ryzen processors for AM4 sockets motherboards - new as in a new sku,  not a new design, even though they have been producing AM5 socket processors for awhile.  I think this is all possible because processors are now so fast, and have been for some time now, that it is realistic to buy and use "older" processors and motherboards.

[Eugene Gorbunoff]

OK, added more Hardware reports to the database
https://en.os2.guru/projects/hardware/?action=mb

[Dave Yeo]

Hi Doug,
My memory of virtual machines, starting with VirtualPC was that the goal was both, run other OS in OS/2 and run OS/2 in other virtual machines. OS/2 uses more of the x86 capabilities then any other OS. eg parts run in Ring 2.
As for the return of old CPU SKU's, a lot of that is due to the ram shortage with DDR4 memory more available then DDR5. If I was upgrading, I'd go with something where I can reuse my 16GB of DDR4 memory.