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Time to give it up!
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adam
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1. Time to give it up!
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Well ,enough is enough - I have given up getting my scanner working under os/2. I am tired of banging my head against the wall and tired of fighting the stupid windows marketing machine so it's back to windows. I need to use my scanner and I don't have the money to replace it now. I don't like windows and it is not as good as os/2 but at least I can use the scanner under windoze and I don't believe support for the hp 5300c under os/2 will ever come to be. I will keep my os/2 drive around to play with it every now and then but I don't think I will use it for serious computing any longer. I am tired of going back and forth between two different oses.

regards,
adam

Date: 01 May, 2004 on 23:52
jer
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2. Re:Time to give it up!
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There are a lot of good scanners available on eBay and elsewhere used that work very well with os/2 and eComStation. I got my HP5P for $15. Its not worth the worry and problems of dealing with Windows for just $30 or so including shipping for a compatible scanner for os/2 or eComStation!
Date: 02 May, 2004 on 02:09
Zawiah
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3. Re:Time to give it up!
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If I may say so, I think that Windoze has 'spoiled' us all and seduced us into thinking that everything with computers should be or even is easy peasy! I remember a time when getting a computer to do anything useful was a bit of a struggle and we used to write "little programs" just to make them print out! (Or even BIG programs if we want it to be really useful!) If Microsucks ever becomes a complete monopoly how likely is that illusion to remain? M$ wants to stop us using even older versions of Windoze and it's becoming the norm that we upgrade our hardware to use the latest software and then we have to upgrade our software because there's a new must have version! Or 'improved' hardware. Then we need new software. This is an endless cycle - although there is a theoretical limit to all this... But there are people out there who can't afford to upgrade hardware. I know of a firm that recycles computers for charities and various small budget organisations. I've even been asked to supply one for someone with special needs and I think that the solution I come up with will be a 386 with OS/2 warp 3 as if nothing else it will deliver stable Windows - or rather WIN-OS2. I do not see this market going away - in fact it will increase. Unemployment is likely to rise significantly in the UK soon. Maybe the next incarnation of OS/2 will be something like OSFree? Anyway, I never knew a time when getting hardware to work with OS/2 was not a problem... potentially if not in fact. I remember walking into stores and obsessively looking for the "Ready for OS/2 Warp" on the boxes of backup devices, printers CD Rom drives etc. The first time I tried to install OS/2 I had to use floppies because it did not detect my IDE drive. By the time I bought Warp 4 the situation had changed. My perception is that despite the bewildering variety of new devices and and frequent upgrades the situation has improved because;
1) More drivers are being ported or written for OS/2 and the support network (including OS2 World, V.O.I.C.E) is strong and responsive to change and their support is good too.
2) There is less need to upgrade anyway because OS/2 Solutions are infinitely less memory hungry than Windoze.

So I'm optimistic!


Zawiah
Date: 02 May, 2004 on 04:24
adam
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4. Re:Time to give it up!
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Gentlemen, I am not defending windoze in anyway shape or fashion. I clearly agree that os/2 is a superior platform - no argument there. That's not the issue. The issue is hardware compatibility. I don't use credit cards and even if I did I would not trust using them on the Internet despite what they say about security. Besides I have already spent 70 bucks on this scanner(a few years ago)and don't feel I should go through the expense(It's just not the scanner I cannot use under os/2 - I don't have 200 or 300 dollars to spare right now to revamp half the machine to work under os/2), regardless of the price, again. I guess I must be the only person with this scanner who is trying to use os/2 so I guess that is why noone, who knows how, has gotten this working under os/2. It's not worth going through the expense or hassle any longer. I certainly don't think windoze is easier or better but I can at least use all my hardware which I cannot fully do under os/2.

regards,
adam

Date: 02 May, 2004 on 12:18
Zawiah
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5. Re:Time to give it up!
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adam (02 May, 2004 12:1:
Gentlemen,
<snip>
Besides I have already spent 70 bucks on this scanner(a few years ago)and don't feel I should go through the expense(It's just not the scanner I cannot use under os/2 - I don't have 200 or 300 dollars to spare right now to revamp half the machine to work under os/2), regardless of the price, again.
<snip>
regards,
adam

Actually I'm not a gentleman... I know that female users of OS/2 must be in a minority... there can't be many of us with the time after all with kids to bring up... blah blah... but I'm a SWINK but OTO ;-}

My point is that this problem of expense is always gonna be there whatever OS you use coz the M$ Intel Alliance want us to buy the latest upgrades. Kids are the drivers here as they want plug-n-play cameras and scanners and so on and the latest Windows softare for them and they want it NOW! We can't compete with that. We can't get our kids OS/2 solutions for new hardware and have it working before breakfast Christmas morning - end of story. Finito.
But for what in marketing is called the AOH (Adult Orientated Hobby) Market it's a different story. There IS a demand for new or even second user' accessories to work and in this market it is my perception that the competition with OS/2 is Linux - not Windoze as both occupy the 'non M$' market segment. Anyway, I think this problem needs to be solved and the solution logged. Have you tried other forums? For example have you tried WARPDOCTOR on IRC? http://www.warpdoctor.org/
It is available today at 3.00 pm EST.
'Keep the faith!'


Zawiah
Date: 02 May, 2004 on 14:48
oli
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6. Re:Time to give it up!
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That is apart from the fact that quite a lot of recent hardware does not support windows except specific variants ! And you are entierly correct, you must choose the hardware to run the software, buying the hardware first and then deciding on the software is just brain dead.
Date: 02 May, 2004 on 16:10
adam
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7. Re:Time to give it up!
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Well since I don't usually check out people's profiles it was a little difficult to judge someone's gender from a nickname...
but anyways It's not a case of me installing os/2 and then going out and buying this and buying that and hoping their is os/2 support for it. I bought the devices when I was using windows sometime before I ever considered trying another os. I was just trying to ween myself off of it to a better platform. The ongoing expense is besides the point - didn't needed to be mentioned. I have tried other forums with the same results. The fact is their is no drivers for the hardware I have for os/2 and for that matter eCS, so I don't think I will be upgrading to eCS anytime soon despite the good things I have heard about it. The bottom line is I need to go with what works with the hardware and that right now is windoze - despite the fact I am not happy with the occassional crashes and instability and Microsft's marketing machine. If things change several months down the road(Which is certainly possible) then I will give os/2(and possibly eCS) another go. I right now need to use the scanner and I spending too much time trying to get it work under os/2 and not enough time actually using it and I can at least access it under windoze which is better then not at all. Besides, computers and oses are just tools - it's not a life or death matter here. It's not really worth the continued headache anymore. Like I said, I will keep os/2 around to try out things and maybe sometime in the future support will show up for the hardware I have and I will be able to finally get rid of Bill and his super memory-hogging, drive-space hogging gorilla known as windoze. Well good luck to y'all!

regards,
adam

Date: 02 May, 2004 on 19:28
devnul
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8. Re:Time to give it up!
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Getting the HP 5300 (and other yet unsopprted scanners) to work on OS/2 may be easier than thought...

What is needed ?

1. A Sane Avision backend which compiles using Vac++. seems MacosX users are not such whiners, they've alraedy made a patch for MacosX so the Avision backend (and some others) use pthread instead of fork (on MacosX the original sources where unusable too) and this should be a good starting point for making it VAC++ compatible.

2. As soon the Backend compiles with Vac++ pass sources over to Tame/2 developers, so they can add libusb for OS/2

3. Test the backend on your scanner and generate debug files so it gets bugfree.

Date: 02 May, 2004 on 19:58
os2power
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9. Re:Time to give it up!
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No one can ever say that OS/2 remain easy TO DO. 1st there are requirements for updates; 2nd as "Adam" says there are not enough drivers for all the periferals out there,including the scanners.

It's a real pain in the a.. to have a piece of hardware not working within the system out of the box, WinShit does that, os/2 ......no dice!

It's understandable the frustration of people keeping on holding on to OS/2.

My ten years old daughter she doesn't even know os/2 ever existed.

Wow, tough times ahead!!!!!!


ciao, os2power

Date: 02 May, 2004 on 20:55
devnul
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10. Re:Time to give it up!
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[quote]os2power (02 May, 2004 20:55):

>It's a real pain in the a.. to have a piece of hardware not working within >the system out of the box, WinShit does that

Good joke. 1. what Windows version are you talking about ? 2. I could give you dozens of examples where even latest WinXP doesn't recognize anything without additional drivers installed. Surely for Windows exist more drivers, but thats not always a fortune, e.g. try to use any of those external usb soundcards with windows seriously afterwards you feel lucky that most don't exist forother OS at all.

>My ten years old daughter she doesn't even know os/2 ever existed.

So it seems educuation went wrong

Date: 02 May, 2004 on 22:10
Zawiah
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11. Re:Time to give it up!
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My own experience with OS/2 was that I came close to more or less giving up. I thought why bother? Most of it works OK now doesn't it? My mum has bought me a new PC and I did not get much of a choice over it but I asked them to install Linux to give me some control. My plan was to migrate all the files and apps from the old PC I've been using to Linux and I asked my 21 year old niece who is VERY anti Microsucks to recommend some good sites etc. and the more I looked into it the more I thought naaa! The only frustration I've had recently has been with IBM who are very discouraging - after several emails and a telephone conversation I still haven't found out how to sign up for Software Choice! The IBM site is a mess... Anyone with OS/2 has to have a considerable investment to want to carry on. I think that eCS is the way to go! Seems a waste though!!

Now then... are there sufficient Linux drivers and can these be ported or got to work under Odin? Sorry if that's dumb. Not thoroughly investigated Odin yet - that's on my little list!


Zawiah

We don wahn no steenkeen weendoze!

Date: 02 May, 2004 on 23:23
Radek
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12. Re:Time to give it up!
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A possible "quick and dirty" solution for the scanner: Have you tried VirtualPC? Well, it's costy but there should exist a free of charge(?) project, which will do as well.
Both these apps emulate hardware so that you can install, for example, W98 into your VirtualPC and then the driver for the scanner. You can communicate between the W98 and your OS/2 by means of "shared network folders" so that you should be able to store scanned images directly to your OS/2 folders. Moreover, you can backup the virtual W98 machine so that you can restore it from the backup when it crashes. No need for reinstalling.
Date: 03 May, 2004 on 10:12
adam
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13. Re:Time to give it up!
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devnul, you are making the assumption that everyone who uses windows has made the jump to win xp - no! Win XP isn't quite as hardware friendly, true - but the Win 95,98,ME is. Microsoft would probably love everyone to believe that all windows users have moved to Win Xp but some of us don't buy into Bill's fantasies. I have no intention of buying XP and won't buy the upcoming longhorn - whatever name Bill decides to stick on it. I use Win ME and finding drivers for most hardware is not that difficult. Actually I have been exposed to os/2 since the days of 2.1. I am just fed up with windows and Bills' games, that's all. However, I am not going to debate this since I am not interested in debating this.

I have had c\c++ but it has been 7 or 8 years ago and I have not used it since then. I have downloaded open watcom 1.2 for os/2 and have installed it. I will download libusb and see if there is anything I can do but it will take sometime to shake off the rust and then on top of that I have never ported anything so I don't have a clue as to what is involved in that. Then there is probably the little differences in language rules between whatever c compiler they used and open watcom that I will have to learn, since not all c compilers are exactly alike. So don't hold your breath people! Unless there is someone to give me a little assistance on what is involved in porting something from linux over to os/2, well...
I have to believe that I am not the only one who would benefit in having more widespread usb scanner support in tame then just espson usb scanners. I guess it's a mystery to me why this hasn't been done already, but there are alot of mysteries in the univers. There needs to be native support for this and using virtual pc would be slow and klunky in my opinion and odin still needs more work in my opinion. This needs to be done for eCS as well if it is going to continue on otherwise it will probably be difficult to persuade people to buy into eCS if they are limited into what hardware they can use. I don't think there is any excuse for this, but that is just my opinion.

regards,
adam

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 13:20
ChrisR
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14. Re:Time to give it up!
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Only until a few weeks ago I was still using a scanner what needed an ISA card..
Yeah.. I bought some years ago and I bought a main board with ISA and PCI slots, it did have a AT power connector as well as a ATX power connector... I thought it would be a good investment and I should be ready for the future.. it was in those years MINTELL wanted to get rid off the ISA bus.. and I never believed they could do it.. nobody wanted it and nobody asked for it.... but they just did....
So for a very long time I was stucked at a max. K6 500Mhz... it was a lot some years ago.. but then I fell behind very quickly.. (I also had 2 good and expensive ISA soundcards)
Yep.. eCS runs great on this board.. that's why I could keep using it so long time...
But still.. to copy a DVD took me about 4 hours.. And well VPC...
So a few weeks I decided it really is time to upgrade.. I now have a AMD 2800+ system for half of the price I did pay for my K6 500 system......
But now I have problems... first I'm out of a scanner at the moment while I have a very good one but people want money only to take it away from me..
The biggest problem is that I don't have sound in (plain) DOS anymore...
I have about 100 great DOS adventures and games and I really want to keep playing them.. beside.. it was a big investment... ..
Hell.. I don't even have sound in a windoze DOS box.. ..
But I have SBlive.. in several advertisements it did say DOS should be supported..
So I mailed to creative.. they asked me about the number on my card first.. and then they said this number was not supported in DOS )
So what number is supported in DOS then??.. because Sblive are plenty for sale.. second hand... well they did not really know.. it should have a CD with the DOS drivers.. and...
Well OK its a long story.. I suppose you can imagine..
(now they tell me that I need DOS 7.0 with win installed and they mailed me a link how to install wind on my machine.. I have a win98 partition already for a year)
Another problem I have already a longer time is my USB camera.. well that is.. when I want to use it as a CAM when my girlfriend is abroad... that's why I have a windoze partition..
Although VPC runs smoothly now.. (even XP runs faster as at my job:-) ) it still has no USB support... so VPC is not a solution.. when SVSE comes with USB support (and sound (in DOS)) all the problems are gone for a while.. because soon M$ will come with an update or new windoze version what won't work in a virtual machine... and the hardware will follow them..
Windows XP doesn't support that many hardware actually.. at first you need a XP certified driver for every specific hardware vendor ect.. if not.. it only works half...
Secondly the USB support is very poor.. when you connect a cardreader for instance.. you get about 4-6 drives.. even if the reader is empty.. and every different brand of flash drive wants a different drive.. a drive letter keeps (forever?) connected with the drive you used it the first time... (Gates; "The alphabet should be enough for everybody")....
So.. after about a year you will have buy a new scanner anyhow.. or keep behind on the rest of the windows world.....
What I want to say.. it was and I suppose it never be OS/2 eCS what forces you to buy new hardware and upgrade...
Its all a deal M$ made with the hardware vendors... just like a TV suddenly stops working after about 5 years as if they put a timer in it.... and a lamp what burn that many hours and then stops... while today they can make lamps who last at least a humans life and probably more..
You're forced to spend money.. if you want or not.. and your scanner will become useless sooner as you expect.. and nobody will pay even 1 cent for it while its still a good scanner.
So buying a eCS supported scanner.. even a second hand one wind does not support anymore will become a lot cheaper.. at least then you can still update the OS and keep using the scanner until it completely finishes...
Anyway.. I'm now reassembling my old main board again in a small desktop case.. and planning to use it in a network and or a KVM-switch.. because I cannot life without it.. and put eCS on it..

Chris..

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 14:13
devnul
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15. Re:Time to give it up!
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>devnul, you are making the assumption that everyone who uses windows has made the jump to win xp

Did I ?

Some clarifications:

1. Odin is of NO help when it comes to scanners, even os2warp.be had to learn it on the hard way with his Vuesacn project

2. VPC is of NO help with USB, cause no USB drivers in there

3. Libusb alone is NO help, what is needed (and only this) a recent (1.14) avision Sane backend which compiles with Vac++ nothing more. Latest Vac++ build of Sane was 0.74 by Yuri Dario.

And finally sooner or later all win users will discover that they have to upgrade (if they want or not), e.g. forthcoming Intel Chipsets will come only with W2K/XP drivers none for Win 95/98/ME, recent Antivirus software won't work any longer (and whats Windows without Virus-Protection exposed to Internet ?) , no patches against recent and future exploits are available, but maybe you want to let act you win installation as malware relay...

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 14:19
ChrisR
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16. Re:Time to give it up!
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[b]
And finally sooner or later all win users will discover that they have to upgrade (if they want or not), e.g. forthcoming Intel Chipsets will come only with W2K/XP drivers none for Win 95/98/ME, recent Antivirus software won't work any longer (and whats Windows without Virus-Protection exposed to Internet ?) , no patches against recent and future exploits are available, but maybe you want to let act you win installation as malware relay...

Yes, this is very true unfortunately.. I really wanted to keep using my win95 partition untill I would not need a win partion any longer.. I had to do all kind of tricks.. but I lost the battle.. a year ago I did upgrate to win98 I did not want it but there was not any choice.. and again its getting critical.. I can do only internet banking in XP.. fortunately it (still) works great in VPC XP:-).. (going to another bank is a lot of efford and how long will they support 98??) And before I bought my new main bord I went on the net searching for boards what came without a speciffic XP driver.. because a friend of mine can no longer run 98 on his mainboard..
Changing a main board did absolutely nothing to eCS.. it started as normally only a lot faster and only complained about my soundcards not found wich I forgot to remove from the config.sys.. it took me 2 days to get 98 again working with my new board... and a whole afternoon to install the SBlive drivers... .. its realy true!!!!

Chris..

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 15:03
Zawiah
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17. Re:Time to give it up!
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Admin;I wonder if this rather useful thread could be 'renamed' or perhaps better linked to a new thread with a title something like "Hardware support issues" as there are some really positive and helpful hints coming out of it? It would be good to be able to find this all again months down the line and "Time to give it up!" is not very descriptive!
Zawiah

We don wahn no steenkeen weendoze!

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 15:58
adam
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18. Re:Time to give it up!
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Saying that sooner or later I will have to upgrade to a newer verson of windows is playing Bill shell game.- sorry don't like to play Bill's game and don't feel I have to or need to. Last time I checked it was a pc(personal computer not a bc - Bill's computer:)) Saying I am going to have to go to a new scanner is phooey. I will go to a new scanner if it breaks down. I see evidence all the time around where I am at that people are not using the lastest, greatest stuff in there businesses and are getting along just fine thank you very much. I only upgrade when I need to, not for somenone else. This is a desktop pc at home,not a workstation that is someone else's decision as to what happens to it. And about needing more then just libusb, well according to Frank Bakan at his website - he did the os/2 port of sane - he states that is what is needed to add usb scanner support to sane - so I was just going on what he says. If you want to debate the issue devnul - then take it up with him. It is his info, not mine. I see no reason for there not being more usb scanners supported under os/2-eCS. The tools are there, and I see evidence there are people who know how to do the porting so I am sorry the reasoning escapes me. If ya' want eCS to flurish, then something needs to be done about these hardware issues or else it is going to die. Sure there is alot of devices that are supported, but there are alot more devices out there that are not. Instead of making excuses, the os/2-eCS community needs to take action. Like the song says, "Needs a little less talk, and alot more action!"

regards,
adam

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 18:59
devnul
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19. Re:Time to give it up!
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>And about needing more then just libusb, well according to Frank Bakan at his website - he did the os/2 port of sane - he states that is what is needed to add usb scanner support to sane

And if you would have read further you would have found:

' But there is an exeption for Epson-USB-Scanners.
Some are supported by a SANE-binary compiled by Maeda Haruyuki! The binaries are part of the latest TAME Package (0.98 or later'

And why do you guess can Maeda Haruyuki make the Sane Epson backend work with USB ? Because he has ported libusb. And why doesn't Franz Bakan then get the sources. For a simple reason: he can't do anything with them, they need VAC++ and Franz Bakan uses GCC

But as it seems that your primary goal is to complain I guess it's useless to discuss anything further. Use your scanner until it breaks and be happy.

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 19:33
adam
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20. Re:Time to give it up!
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Yeah, it's time to move on. Besides, I have better things to do, like use my scanner. My primary goal is complaining eh? - well if that is what you choose to call it - whatever. Life goes on.
Kim, would it be possible to close this thread down? It's no longer the thread I originally intended it to be.

regards,
adam

Date: 03 May, 2004 on 20:54
Time to give it up!
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